A website from the Massachusetts Historical Society; founded 1791.

Papers of the Winthrop Family, Volume 4

263
Edward Norris to John Winthrop1
Norris, Edward JW

1640-07-09

To the Right Worshipfull John Winthrope Esq. at his house these be deliuered in Boston
Worshipfull and Right Worthy Sir,

I have receaved letters from some speciall frendes in Bristol with this request: that whereas one Mr. Long an Alderman of that Citie, of great estate, and very good esteeme there, hath sent over his eldest sonne (one addicted (as it seemes) to traveyl) to recyde for a time in these partes, and hath desyred above all, that he might (yf possible) be entertained by yourselfe vppon what termes yow shall sett downe: and that I should doe my best to further the same: these are with intreatie to tender the sayed motion vnto yow by waye of letter being not well able to traveyle my selfe (which else I would, and should have done) that yf great inconveniences stand not in the waye, yow would be pleased to fullfill the request of such as are well able and (I believe) as willing to make satisfaction, with respectfull thankes, and love vnto yow. the yong man I knowe not, being in foraigne partes at my being in Bristoll but is there readye to present himselfe vnto yow, as I have given direction, and the master of the ship with whom he came. Thus, craveing leave for this boldnes with yow vpon such an occasion, I commend yow, with good Mris. Winthrop, to the grace of God in Jesus Christ, resting Your Worships in all due respect and observance

Edw: Norice Salem, 9no 5ti Mensis 1640
1.

W. 4. 106; 5 Collections , I. 306.

Lord Say and Sele to John Winthrop1
Viscount Say and Sele Fiennes, William JW JW

1640-07-09

Worthy Sir,

I receaved a letter from you dated the 20th of March2 whearin vppon hearsay you fall into a reproffe of me backed with intimations that I may expect and fear Judgements as the 10 princes of Israel founde, for bringinge vp an ill report vppon your lande, and diverting mens intentions from comminge to you as they did discorage the Israelites from goinge into the lande of Canaan. and as befell Moyses and Aron for torn gods 264people to have ielovs thoughtes of his goodnes to them, thorough theyr owne unbeleefe: and that you may fix it deaper you desire me to consyder the 4 of Nehemiah 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. whearin the example of Sanballat and Tobiah are sett before me to fright me. and indeade good cause had I to be frighted, and much humbled if any of these wear iustly applyed to me, or theyr actions and myne in this particular of like nature and consequence, and soe rightly paralelled. But whearas you speake in your letter of taking the name of god in vayne, I pray consyder seriously, and lett our frendes thear be Judges betwene vs, wheather this be not a taking of godes name in vayne to misaply scriptures in this manner (a thinge that when I have heard of it elswhear in speaches and letters hath greaved me) by assuminge (for that must be granted you) that thear is the like cal from god for your goinge to that part of America and fixinge thear, that thear was for the Israelites goinge to the land of promise and fixinge thear: the like grownde for your staying in that place and others comminge theather to you, that thear was for Nehemiahs buildinge the walls of Jerusalem: and for you to plant thear, and noe whear else is as much a worke of God as his building Jerusalem in that place and now whear else, although the meanes and probabylities in humane reason for your owne good, and inablinge to doe much more good for the advancement of the gospell wear surpassinge what is thear neaver soe much. is this to be offered vnto men of Judgement? Whoe knoweth not that in the one case fayth only was to be used, and reason layd asyde; but in this of yours it will on the other syd, be a want of fayth and tempting of god not to exercise reason in the consyderation of possibylyties, yea, and probabylyties. Thus much to your instances out of scripture which give me leave to intreat you to vse with more care. for the matter it selfe the substance of what you charge me with is, that my authorytye (which you advance as very effectual) hath diverted many from coming to you and cast theyr affections another way: this you say you envy not, but wish they may speed well in a better choyse; and yet presently add that this hath caused many a hart to be trobled and greaved. and also this causeth you to lay this charge vppon me; why should you or any other man be greaved that men followe theyr Judgements in transplantinge themselves when it is free for them soe to doe: and when they think another place more commodious then that for them thearfore pitch vppon it rather. and if I think soe too why am I soe sharpely dealt withall only for speakinge that which is a truth in my Judgement to any that shall advice with me. But you will say I disparrage that plantation to advance another: it is meet for him that will Judge to hear both sydes fyrst and to be sure of his groundes: if you knewe how basely and falsely that other plan­265tation of Provydence hath bin disparraged by those affected to yours for the ende for which you suspect I had don the like to you, then you would better knowe whear to place and apply your reproffes. For my part my prayers and torn have bin and shall be for the good and advancement of those faythefull people, and pure churches that I know to be thear; and to that very ende have I accordinge to my Judgement persuayded men to thinke of a more southerly part of that Continent whear they might fitt a commodious place for such a body as they already are, and are likely to growe vnto quickly by accession of those whoe would thear come vnto them, or they would be able to bringe vnto them if poore, by the abylytie that such places would afford them: whearas nowe they are soe placed that rich men growe pore and poore men if they come over are a burthen, the rich only mayntayninge the market for a time vntill that be spent which they bring out of Englande, which land floude will have an ende, and then wantinge a springe, and havinge a continual wast the water will all run out of the poole; in a place whear staple commodyties already are, and the soyle and clymate knowen to be fitt to produce the richest, and thearby to carry on soe great a worke as the framinge of a commonwealth and the setlinge thearof for posterytie, thear will be noe place for this torn; and by this I hope alsoe I shall not be thought to have a little Iland and the advancement thearof only in my contemplations in all this proposition What may iustly be vrged agaynst me by the arguments you have vsed and pressed which doth not as much concerne them whoe dayly leave you att the Bay and goe many miles southward for better accommodations only may you not aske them wheather they dowbt the worke be of God? wheather his gracious presence be not amongest you etc.? these arguments conclude not at all a condemnation of what they have don: or what I desyre might be don by you all when it shall be soe prepared that you may see it feaceable and profitable, not for outward thinges alone (though that will be founde necessary as I veryly thinke) but most of all for the advancement of the gospell and puttinge downe the great adversary thearof that man of sinn, whearvnto as you are now you neather are able nor are likely to be to putt your handes to the least wheele that is to be turned about in that worke otherwayse then by well wishinge thearvnto: All the rest of your proffes to prove it a worke of God are meerely besydes this question, and nothing to the pourpose: it is good in argumentation, especially when you will presse Judgements vppon any, to examine fyrst wheather your reasons conclude the poynt in question, or are soe far besydes the matter as that they may all be granted and yet the case remayne the same it was: I will grant that God is with you, that you are glorious churches, that he sent you 266theather in handfulls vntill you might grow vnto a body fitt to doe him service; that he hath blessed you thear with some testimonyes of his favour vntill you wear soe augmented: will it att all be concluded from thence that you are bounde to stay thear, or that that is the place which he hath designed out for you: and whosoever discorageth others from cominge to you fighteth agaynst God? noe such thinge, I will more probably argue the cleane contrary! god hath carryed you theather in parts, one company after another, whear you might be gathered togeather in safty, vntill you wear growen vnto such a bodye as wear able to doe him service, and sitt downe in safty in such places as may be most fitt for the worke he hath in hande, and for your owne comfortable subsistinge: this you could not have don by handfulls as you went out, thearfore att the fyrst you wear cast vppon this place: and caryed out into this wildernes to be increased and fitted for the worke intended for you: now you are thear you fynde it but a wildernes (which causeth many of you to straggle), that soe when an opportunity is offered vnto you you might not neglect it, but see your selves called to it, as you have bin hear sheltred by a gracious provydence vntill you wear growen fitt and able to vndertake it, which opportunity if you neglect by pretendingtorn while you neglect to serve provydence, which offereth you meanes another way, and discovereth to you the want of meanes wheare you are: you will doe noe other then cast your selfes downe from the pynacle and refuse the stayres which are before you: for it is as likely that you have in provydence bin cast vppon that place to remove from thence vppon due occasion, as to stay thear, and much more likely when in some other you may doe more service, and receave more meanes by much of comfortable subsistence. hear you see which way all your arguments may be turned with as much convincinge evydence, as to conclude that you bringe them for. for the barrenes of the lande and the coldnes of the ayre in the winter it will be testyfyed from those whoe have had experience of it, your owne losses may be sufficient witnes of it, but I pray tell me, be it as it is, is thear any impiety in me to move men to live in a warmer clymate and in a more frutefull soyle when it is fre for them to make theyr choyse, why are you angry with me for this? for your goverment it is a very plausible way to win vppon the torn that affecteth popularyty, to persuayd them that other men goe about to enthral them, and theyr posterytie, but he standeth for theyr libertye; when it may be neather he nor they rightly vnderstande what true goverment is and desyrable liberty, such as wise men would wish to inioy, and live vnder: I wonder you should conceave any man would desyre to advance his owne posterytie by enthraling other mens whoe have moved any alteration of goverment with you: and 267theyr posterytie with you, or like to be with you, or to be advanced by beinge thear? hath any gon about to inslave you? You say your forme of goverment you hear is much blamed but whearin you expresse not, only you ende with this that you woulde not be enthraled to advance other mens posterytie: and I say agayne noe wise man shoud be soe folish as to live whear every man is a master, and masters must not correct theyr servants; where wise men propounde and fooles determine as it was sayde of the Citties of Greece. for my part if you ayme att me I doe Judge and thinke I can mayntayne by good reason that to be the best forme of goverment which hath in it the good of all three, so fittly limitinge each other, and thearby preventinge the evills of eather, that beinge equally poysed one by the other, they shall all yealde forth what is good in eather for the settlinge and preservinge of common right and liberty to all and every particular. it may be you ayme att this that some ranckes shoulde be hereditary and that you think woulde enthrale others: not att all when it should be in theyr giftes vppon meritt and well deservinge of the common wealth, and in theyr power to resume vppon demerritt; that thear is power in a state to reward virtue hereditaryly and for disservice to lay a punishment that shall extende to posterytie, this constitution doth not abridg power in those that give it, though they injoy it not themselves, but advanceth theyr liberty to theyr owne good. Thear is noe danger in such different degrees (which will be founde necessary) so longe as they are allwayes accomptable to parliamentes consisting of all estates vnited yearly and havinge in that vnion supremam potestatem: For what you say of the Church not compatible with another frame of goverment, I pray putt away that error; these govermentes must be, as in theyr owne nature they are, keapt and exercised soe distinct, as that movinge within theyr owne sphaeres, the church goverment beinge wholly spirrittual, can consist with any forme of outward goverment good or bad soe did they in the time of the Heathen Tyrants. I have trobled you with a tedious and scribled letter, you must excuse me I cannot for the hast of the bearer whoe stayeth for it while I write it transcribe it my hast also may cause me to give you lesse satisfaction then otherwise I might. You may please to make the best interpretation of all, and to accompt of me as one that wisheth all happynes to your plantation and to your selfe shall remayne Your very lovinge frende

W: Say and Seale July 9, 1640
268

Memorandum by Governor Winthrop: To my Lord Brooke that their estates were gone allready. Aske mr. Gurdon mr. Darlye etc. what is become of their adventures. What content those have who be there. What Conveniences they return with what staple Comodyties for livlyhood. What is become of their 120000li.

1.

W. Au. 99; 5 Collections , I. 297–303; L. and L. , II. 422–427. For William Fiennes, First Viscount Say and Sele, see D.N.B.

2.

For Winthrop's account of his controversy with Lord Say and Sele over the latter's attempt to persuade New Englanders to move to his settlement at Old Providence in the Caribbean, see Journal, I. 334–335; also printed in D.J.W. .