1. And first a Question would be demanded, whither Antechrist or the Antechristian Church hath vtterly nullified the Christian Churches: or whither it hathe onely polluted them for great Consequence will followe vpon either side.

And first of the 1: viz: if Antechrist hathe nullified and quite destroyed the Christian Churches then is it needful that we knowe the tyme when they were thus destroyed and nullified: and how longe Christs Churches did remaine.

2: If Christs Churches were vtterly nullified then how these Scriptures etc. can be fullfilled. Dan. 7: 14. there was given him dominion etc: that all people etc: an everlasting dominion etc. Math: 16. 18.—and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Heb: 12: 28.—we receiving a kingdom which 11cannot be moved. and divers others, that doe promise the Continuation of Christs Churches to the worlds ende.

On the other side, how shall these Scriptures be fullfilled. 2 thes: 2: 4. where that Antechrist is called that man of sinne, that doth sitt in the Temple of God: but these and such scriptures wilbe more properly brought in, when I shall shewe the Consequence on the other side.

3: If Christs Churches were vtterly nullified, and quite destroyed, then I demande when they beganne againe and where? who beganne them? that we may knowe, by what right and power they did beginne them: for we have not heard of any newe Jo: Baptist, nor of any other newe waye from heaven, by which they have begunne the Churches a newe.

4: If the Churches were quite nullified and destroyed: and that there have none been erected since with newe Authoritye from heaven, then either our outward, visible, and externall badge of our profession, viz: our Baptisme, is not right, or els there is an other power, besides the Churches power, that hathe the Authoritye to Baptize: but we knowe no suche power since the tyme of the Appostles and Evangelistes did Cease: ergo, if the Churches were destroyed, our Baptism is not right.

But before I goe any further, I must Answer some obiections against the 2d position: viz: concerning the scriptures that were Cited for Continuation.

ob: The scriptures are to proue the Continuation of the invisible Church and that indeed must Continue. Answ. that it is not the invisible but the visible Churches that are meant by these places is certaine and cleere, and that by this Argument: That Church that hath the Keyes committed to it, that is the Church that is meant by these scriptures: but the visible Church etc: ergo, The proposition is cleare, math: 16: 18.

The Assumption is thus proved: That Church onely that hath the Keyes, must be able to meet togither, and be able to heare a Complaint, and to give an Answer: but the visible Church is onely able etc. ergo.

The proposition is cleere. math: 18. 17. 1 Cor: 14. 23.

The Assumption no wise man will question, I thinke: seeinge the invisible Church never did, nor can come together, vntill the last daye.

Ob: against the 4th position viz. Concerninge our Baptisme.

1: Ob: that man, that can preache (which is the greater worke) he may allso baptize (which is the lesse): but we see, that manye a man can preache by vertue of a Guifte, that he hathe attained vnto ergo all suche may baptize.

Answ: preachinge is to be vnderstood diversly: but I will speake of it but these 2 wayes, at this tyme: and so take it, either as it is a guifte, or grace, which men by endeauour may attaine vnto, and as the Apostle Commanded 12the Corinthian churches (and in them all other Churches) to Couett after, as that 1 Cor: 14: 1, and drives at the same in the wholl chapter. Or els I will take it according vnto that preachinge spoken of Rom: 10: 14, 15. where sendinge enables them to an office of preachinge: and so take preachinge in the 1 sence, and then I denye that either suche preachinge is greater then Baptizinge, or that suche a man, though he preache, may therefore baptize. but take preaching as it is meant in the 2 Consideration (that is as it is tyed to an office) then I grant their sayinge, that he that may or can doe the greater, may doe the lesse, preferinge preachinge to baptizinge: but this later, no man takes to him selfe, but he that is called of God as Aron was. heb: 5. 4.

2: Ob: Baptisme is Baptisme, by whomsoever it is performed: and therefore where water is layd on in the name of the father sonne and holy Ghost, there is true Baptisme. Ans: 1: it is meet to vnderstande what they meane by Baptisme, seeinge the worde signifies washinge, and so take it in the largest sence, then we must grant that which they saye etc: But take Baptisme as it is Gods ordinance, to be that washinge, that signifies our washinge awaye of sinne, by Christs bloud and dothe signify the same to euerye true beleeuer, and then I saye, that Baptisme is not rightly and truly to be called Baptisme, if it want any of these 4 thinges: viz: a true obiecte, and a true subiecte, a true power, and a true and right Element: nay, I suppose, I might proue it a nullitye if it want a 5 thinge.

Other ob: are made, as namely, they will have Baptisme to be a Concept of their owne braines, that is, they will vnderstande Baptisme in their minde, viz: water and wordes vsed without any subiect: but that and suche other are so vaine, that such ob: are not worthe the Answ:

5: As the Consequence of denyall of holy scriptures is verye dangerous, so is another fowle Assertion verye offensive. The Scriptures before are denyed or falsified, that doe promise the Continuation of Christs Churches as that of Matt. Thes. Heb. and others: and that foule Assertion, that dothe denye the people of God in England or els where, to be visible Church Christians, and the societyes of them to be visible Church Christians, is verye offensive to all Godly and tender hearted Christians.

I am not vnacquainted with their Offensive Ob: that we make whores and drunkards visible Christians. I Answ: 1: to terme the people in general whores and drunkards is evill: for althoughe the most part are ignorant (the more is their sinne and our greife) yet whores and drunkards they are not: weake Christians they are indeed, and the weaker for want of that tender Care, that should be had of them: 1: by those that are sett ouer them to feede them: and next for that spirituall pride, that Sathan rooted into the hearts of 13their brethren, who when they are Converted, doe not, nor will not strengthen them, but doe Censure them, to be none of Gods people, nor any visible Christians: nay they of the separation have gone further, and denyed them to be visible Christians, whose knowledge in religion is not inferiour to theirs, and their walkinge in Religion answerable to their Knowledge; affirminge such to be worse then the other sorte viz: of the Ignorant. this is the Charity of these harshe spiritts, and that because they will not sinne with them in the point of separation: abusinge those scriptures that doe call vs out of Babell, viz: the Churche of Rome, and all other Consociated Churche estates, whether nationall, or diocesan: and applye suche scriptures to their separation from the particular Congregations, because they partake of a mixed multitude: and either pride, malice, or ignorance, in the most of these Censurers, will not give them leave, to distinguishe betweene Corrupt Churches and false Churches, as they doe terme the Congregations: neither will they putt any difference betweene the Churches as they are nationall, and appointed by man, and as they are particular Congregations, and appointed by Christ: for so they are, as they remaine particular Congregations, even Churches of Christs owne appointinge, althoughe now they be Corrupted.

Ob: Can the sounde of a Trumpett by King Edward or by Queen Elizabeth make the Churches true that were false in the dayes of Henry 8. and of Mary his daughter, who did maintain Popery, and did force the Churches thereto? Ans: no: but the particular Congregations were as true Churches in the dayes of Queen Mary as they were in the dayes of Queen Elizabeth onely they did differ in doctrine, and were more Corrupt in Marys dayes then of Elizabeth althoughe too muche Corrupt then and now too: But the Corruption of a thinge dothe not nullifie a thinge so longe as the thinge hathe a beinge in the same nature, that it had, when it was in the beste beinge: so is it with the particular Congregations.

Ob: The Churches in England were never true, for they did want a right Constitution at the first, for they were Constituted by Augustine his worke.

Ans: that is more then they doe knowe, that doe saye so: for some are of the minde, that Joseph of Arimathea brought hither the Gospell, I meane into England and so was a meanes to plant Churches: but these must be lefte to Records: and so I Answ: further, that whether Augustine or Joseph or any other that God made his Instruments to Conveye the Gospell into England or into other lands, yet, blessed be the name of the Lord, it tooke effecte, that Churches were gathered.

Ob: but they were never rightly Constituted.

Ans: how knowe you that? 1: how doe you knowe, how and in what forme 14(I mean) or words, the Churches were, and are to be Constituted, to make them right, or els they are not true? 2: If you could laye downe a forme of words, vnto which all Churches must be tyed, or els they be no true Churches (as I doubt you cannot yet) how doe you knowe, but that they might have that forme, when they beganne, altho it be not recorded? It may fall out in this Countrye, where we now live that Records of everye Churchs beginninge are not kept, neither yet any Record who was the first founder of the Gospell heere: I demande now, if this be a good Consequence of those that shall succeede vs heere in future tymes, if differences of opinion shall arise, the Churches that were planted heere had no right Constitution, for suche an one brought the Gospell hether. Even so deale those men with vs in their reasoninge: but wisdome will rather reason thus, we see the Churches are in the particular and Congregationall forme, althoughe now Corrupted, ergo sure they were so at the first.

Againe, Consider one poore defence, to make their owne Baptisme good, by a wronge meanes: they Reason thus: Israell in the tyme of Apostacie, were none of the Churche of God, yet were they Circumsised, and their Circumcition was good, so 2 is our Baptisme true, saye they, thoughe doone in a false Church. I could wish 2 these men to take better heed, and not to be so bould, to runne into one error to 2 boulster out another, I meane, that to shunne that foule Offence, of denyinge 2 the Churches now remaininge to be true, and yet will holde their Baptisme they will also call Israell a false Church, with whom the Lord made a Covenant, and helde the same, vnto the Captivitye, if not to Christs cominge in the fleshe, as appeareth plainly by holy scriptures. Againe they ob: Zipporah did Circumcise, who might not doe it yet it stood in forme, ergo, their Baptisme is in forme, by whomsoever it was doone. I Ans: i: they doe but begge the Question, when they saye she might not doe it, for it is more then they can tell, seeinge that no scripture doe forbidd it either expressly or by Consequence, that ever yet they could shewe; but if it were. . . .

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